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►[UPDATED]A complete guide about Riven's kit and combos! (Text AND Video!)

Hey everyone! First, let me introduce myself :) I'm a Riven main making guides about her on my YouTube channel. These guides are focused on whatever that concerns Riven. Matchup guides, itemization, masteries, keystones, tips, I'm talking about anything about Riven! If you are interested on checking my channel, here it is. I posted this guide on this sub some months ago, today I edited it because some parts were outdated)
Some months ago, I made a guide about Riven's combos.
Not a guide like the usual content you can see on YouTube, I really went into the details and explained Riven's kit so people would understand it, and understand better how to pull the combos off thanks to it. Riven's combos are made off multiple small combos, mixed together they're forming a bigger one.
This is why it is important to know the potential of the kit, some little combos so you can put everything together and become more fluent with Riven!

Let's get started - We are gonna learn Riven's kit and how to pull of the combos



A doublecast is the meaning for using two spells at the same time. But Riven can not do it whenever she wants! In order to pull off a doublecast, you have to use your E, it allows you to do a doublecast within the next second. You can not do it too late after the usage of your E, nor too early, the delay would be somewhere between 0.3s to 1.0s after the usage of E.
Let's get more into the details! There is a perfect exemple of doublecast combo:
E > WQ 
As mentioned above, you have a small delay in which you can make use of the "WQ" doublecast after using your E, meaning that you have enough time to throw an auto attack inbetween, transforming the combo into
E > AA > WQ 
If you are using Thunderlord's as a keystone, this would then proc as you used a basic attack and 2 spells really fast.
Let's get even further into this trick now! You still remember that you have between 0.3s to 1s to pull the WQ doublecast, right? Then why not use even more things in this delay? We are gonna repeat the previous combo but this time we will add a tiamat (or ravenous hydra) in it!
It would then look like it:
E > AA > Tiamat/Hydra > WQ 
Let's add even more stuff to these combos! Yes, it is possible. The delay is still big enough to put a flash in the combo. You can prepare a doublecast by using your E, then flash on your target and make use of it. It is a really great combo to surprise your ennemy and kill him with almost no time for him to react if he is low enough to get killed off that combo.
E > F > AA > WQ E > F > AA > Tiamat/Hydra > WQ 
Note: It's worth to mention that you can prepare your auto attack earlier by buffering it. To buffer it, you just need to right click on your target after using E, right before flashing, therefore your champion will automaticaly throw her auto attack as she flashed on the ennemy, making the combo even faster!

Another type of doublecast:

A doublecast can also be done with your ultimate and your Q spell! It works exactly like the WQ doublecast, the delay is the same so you just need to reproduce it by replacing W by R.
It would look like this:
E > RQ E > Tiamat/Hydra > RQ 
Like the previous doublecast (WQ), you can use an auto attack inbetween, which would be like that:
E > AA > RQ E > AA > Tiamat/Hydra > RQ 
Once again, you can use flash in this combo as well!
E > F > AA > RQ E > F > AA > Tiamat/Hydra > RQ 
Note: Riven's ultimate increases her Q and W hitboxes, and auto attacks' range, therefore doing this doublecast could help you hitting your Q when chasing someone, without stopping yourself.
We are done with the doublecasts! Let's get into something else now :)


Most of the newer Riven players tend to stop themselves to use their ultimate (No matter if it is for turning it on, or using the second activation!). I am then gonna talk about the ER buffering; you can turn your ultimate on or use its second activation (Called windslash, or R2) as you are dashing forward with your E!
The combo is pretty easy:
E > R 
Note: This works with both part of the ultimate, whether it is to turn it on while dashing, or dashing forward in order to throw the windslash further!


As said in the title of this chapter, we are now gonna mix the two different combos we learned earlier!
The main thing about Riven is that her combos are a mix of different others. This is why you need to understand her kit in order to pull them off easily!
We recently learned the doublecast combo, and the ER buffering. You still remember that you have about 1s to do whatever you want before doing a doublecast? You got me right, we're not done adding more stuff in the doublecast combos! We are now gonna add the buffering in it.
Here are the different combos:
E > R > AA > WQ E > R > AA > Tiamat/Hydra > WQ E > R > Flash > AA > Tiamat/Hydra > WQ 
Note: Just a reminder that you are not obliged to auto attack, this is just a bonus to DPS even more, making the combo more optimal.


This one is as simple as it sounds. When your ultimate is active, you just need to press Q right after throwing your windslash. It will put more damage in your combo, and would help you to proc thunderlord's if possible!
R2 > Q 
Note: If close enough, your Q will deal the damage before your ultimate. Therefore your ultimate will deal even more damage as it is an execute spell (The lower your target is, the higher the windslash damage will be).


So we recently learned how to Doublecast, buffer your ER and your R2Q. What about using these 3 things in a single combo? Let's do it! :)
E > R > AA > WQ > AA > R2-Q E > R > Tiamat/Hydra > AA > WQ > R2-Q 
As always, you still can flash during this combo!
E > R > Flash > AA > WQ > AA > R2-Q E > R > Flash > AA > Tiamat/Hydra > WQ > AA > R2-Q 
NOTE: Keep in mind that, as always, the auto attacks aren't a MUST, but they increase your DPS and make the combos more optimal. It's better to avoid using them only when your target could escape during the auto attack animation, and that the combo itself without basic attack would be enough to kill them.


You can make us of your Tiamat/Hydra while dashing with your E. All you need to do is to press E followed by Tiamat/Hydra.
Note: You can also use your Tiamat or Hydra BEFORE flashing and the damage would still be dealt at the FINAL position of your flash.
Here are some combos:
E > Tiamat/Hydra > AA > WQ > AA > R2-Q E > Tiamat/Hydra > Flash > AA > WQ > AA > R2-Q 
Note: As said earlier, flashing while the casting time of Tiamat/Hydra will deal its damage to the flash location, and NOT where you were before flashing. It helps to "hide" a part of the animation so your ennemies have less time to react.
Another combo with Tiamat/Hydra > Flash would be the next one; that combo is useful to surprise a low health target and finish them off really quick without time to react.
E > Tiamat/Hydra > Flash > R2-Q 
Note: "E > Tiamat/Hydra > Flash > AA > R2-Q" would work, but it would leave a door of reaction time to your target!
You can hide a part of your ultimate's animation by using tiamat before. It's even better if your tiamat hits the target as it will increase the windslash's execute damage!
Tiamat/Hydra > R2 
You can also mix it with the E into Tiamat/Hydra that you learned earlier!
E > Tiamat/Hydra > R2 


You can flash while casting your wind slash. Therefore your target will have to react faster than if you would flash before using the ult since the missile will reach them faster. You can also use it while dashing forward with your E by pressing it right after, here is the combos:
R2 > F E > R2 > F 


You thought we were done with mixing dem combos, eh? Nah, we are not done yet! We're now gonna mix a doublecast combo with the R2 Flash that we just learned! This would mostly be useful when a lot of ennemies not full health are packed together!
It would look like it:
E > R2 > Flash > WQ E > R2 > Flash > Tiamat/Hydra > WQ 
NOTE: You can make use of a basic attack between your Flash and W (or between Flash and Tiamat/Hydra if you went for the second combo), but you have to be sure that no one would be able to escape or kill you before you stun them.
NOTE 2: If doing it fast enough, your WQ might hit the target before the wind slash's missile reaches the ennemies, increasing the execute damage even more! Bonus point if playing with thunderlord's!


Riven does have great tools to engage a fight if her opponents make a mistake in their positioning. Flashing onto them or jumping over a wall, she definitely can turn the game around with a powerful engage.
There are multiple ways to engage a fight.
Turning the ultimate on while jumping over a wall in order to knock people up:
E > R > Q3 
NOTE: You have to put your cursor in the direction you want to dash in order to turn yourself in the right direction to wall hop.
Throwing the windslash while jumping over a wall and then stun everyone:
R2 > Q3 > W R2 > Q3 > Tiamat/Hydra > W 
NOTE: Use your wind slash in the direction you want to wall hop.
Or, there is also this combo that is one of the most basic to engage as Riven. Extend your Q by waiting the last moment before using the second one, then dash forward with your E to then flash-in followed by a 3rd Q.
Do not 3rd Q before. Flashing during the Q animation would cancel it so there would be no damage and no knock-up. You don't especially have to use the windslash in this combo if it is not necessary.
E > R2 > Flash > Q3 > W E > R2 > Flash > Q3 > Tiamat/Hydra > W E > Tiamat/Hydra > Flash > Q3 > W 


When using your ultimate, no matter if it is the first one or second activation, you can input buffer your W, they both will go off almost instantly. If using the first phage of your ultimate, you will turn it on while stunning your target.
For the first activation of your ult:
R > W 
If you buffered it after the wind slash, then the stun will go off and deal the damage BEFORE it, so it will deal more damage on the execute.
R2 > W 
It also works with your flash. You can use the WindSlash Flash combo that we saw earlier, but on top of that you will use your W right after using your flash. The stun (W) damage will hit the target before your ultimate.
R2 > F > W E > R2 > F > W 


Here we are, the most memed combo on the rivenmains subreddit, « The Shy Combo ». This combo was discovered by "The Shy", a Korean Riven player. Its goal is to 100-0 someone with the least amount of time possible for them to react. Here is a perfect The Shy combo from The Shy himself
Here is the magic trick:
E > R > Flash > W > AA > Tiamat/Hydra > R2-Q 


Riven can use her stun (W) while dashing with her E, but the stun location will depend on how fast she pressed her W key!
E > W 
If pressing W almost instantly after pressing E, the stun will hit around the start of the dash.
E >> W 
If waiting a bit more, the stun location will hit around the END of the dash.
Therefore, Riven can use the fast EW combo in order to run away without stopping herself so she can stun whoever is chasing her and keep on running!


There is a trick allowing Riven to windslash backward as she dashes forward. It's not done that often but it sometimes can be useful to get a kill without taking any risk.
The thing is that your wind slash will always go to the direction your cursor was when you pressed R. So if you dash past your cursor, you will go forward but your windslash will still go in the direction your cursor WAS before.
It means that you can also throw a windslash backward as you're hoping over a wall to get away.
E > R2 E > R2 > Q3 < *This is meant to wallhop* 
Your cursor needs to be around Riven's feet in order to let her dash past this one so her wind slash will go backwards.
Here we are, the guide is over! I hope some of you would've learned some things. Do not hesitate to look at the video to see the combos written in there! :) Here are some last things before I leave you alone.

New to Riven and want to learn more about her? Check out these links!

Adrian Riven: Challenger Riven player, got some popularity on leagueoflegends after bullying Bjergsen and his Ekko in soloQ.
Twitch (Doesn't stream much anymore) Youtube
BoxBox: Despite not being a tryhard guy anymore, he discovered most of the animations cancel on Riven and used to be one of, if not the, best Riven in the world.
Twitch Youtube
Dekar173: buy corsair gear
Twitch Youtube
Viper: This guy is just a god.
Twitch Youtube
All my guides - Itemization/Matchups/Masteries/Tips/Combos and way more on the way!
Any question? Ask in the comments, I'll answer! :) Thank you for reading, guys! Have a nice dayyyyyy!
submitted by RivenBadChampKappa to leagueoflegends

Under The Lights: The Grasses of Rose Cup

Bring on the petals and thorns! This is ROSE Cup, after all!
The "Under The Lights" article series provides deeper dives on Pokémon, typically from outside the center of the meta, that I think may deserve a little more attention, ones that are under the radar a bit but may have breakout potential in the current Cup format. And today, we're looking at a group of Pokémon that are surprisingly few in Rose Cup. Today we put the handful of relevant Grasses... under the lights.
There aren't many. Only six Grass Pokémon are eligible at all, and two of them are the lowest evolution in their line (Lileep and Exeggcute), with a third just having a horrid typing for this Cup and is just not viable (Parasect). Those are all uuuuuuuuuuugly.
Thankfully, the other three do good things. We're going to take a look at them and their strengths and weaknesses, and how they may fill a critical gap on YOUR team.
But first, let's briefly discuss the role of Grass in Rose Cup. Grass is super effective against Water, Ground, and Rock, so that's where you want it the most. Water doesn't exist in this Cup, of course, but there are a lot of potent Grounds and Rocks... and three of the best ones--the Rhyno line--are both Ground AND Rock, and thus take terrible, terrible damage from Grass moves. Grass is also widely unresisted, with Flyers, Grasses, and Poisons being very limited in numbers, meta Bugs being basically non-existent, and really only a few potent Fires and Steels to worry about. And of course, Razor Leafers tend to shred things in neutral (and sometimes even resisted) matchups, and two of our useable Grasses, as you will see, fall into that camp.
In general, you expect Grasses here to handle Grounds and Rocks with relative ease, and also take down things like Fairies, Fighters, and other things that succumb to heavy neutral damage.
Keeping all that in mind, let's see how the candidates do.


Grass/Poison Type
Attack: 131 (126 Maximized)
Defense: 114 (114 Maximized)
HP: 114 (122 Maximized)
(Maximized/High Stat Product IVs: 0-15-15, 1497 CP, Level 22)
Amazingly, this is the only Grass/Poison in the entire Cup, a typing combination usually represented by many Pokémon. And that typing gives Plume some important advantages over its other Grassy peers, especially its built in resistances to Fighting and Fairy moves (thanks to Poison). It also takes only neutral damage from Poison and Bug attacks (both of which deal SE damage to pure Grasses). Plume retains the other common Grass resistances (Electric, Grass, Water) and vulnerabilities (Fire, Flying, Ice). The notable downsides to adding on Poison are Psychic becoming a weakness and Ground dealing neutral damage (whereas pure Grasses resist Ground damage). Got all that? Good, because there will be a quiz later. 🤓
As for the stats... well, they're not great for PvP Great League. High attack, mediocre (at best) bulk. Plume can dish it out, but it isn't going to handle a lot of punishment coming back its way. That will play into things later too....
Fast Moves:
Razor Leaf (Grass, 5.5 DPT, 2.0 EPT, 1.0 CD)
Acid (Poison, 3.0 DPT, 2.5 EPT, 1.0 CD)
And there it is: the mighty Razor Leaf. I'll save you the time of looking it up: Acid just doesn't do it here in Rose. Poison is resisted by a ton of relevant things and Acid is a bad move anyway. Razor Leaf or bust!
And as per usual with Razor Leafers, it alone is really all you need to get nearly all the wins Plume can reach. There's the Graveler and Rhynos we'd expect to be topping the list, but more encouraging is what follows them. Machamp and Medicham and Scrafty. Wigglytuff and Clefable. Haunter, even though it actually resists Razor Leaf. And then the bonuses like Sableye and the Lickys and Magneton (which, as with Haunter, resists Razor Leaf but even the resisted damage is too great for it), and even a tie with Flying Gligar. Digging into the results versus all of Rose Cup, you can see that Plume can Leaf to death all Rocks and Grounds except the Steely, sturdy Probopass and Steelix, and Flying Gliscor. Beats all the Fighters that aren't part Fire, all the Fairies except way-outside-the-meta Confusion Mr. Mime, all Electrics, all Darks and Ghosts that aren't Dark/Poisons or Flying (Drifblim) or Fire Spinning (A-Wak). Even everything Normal except the Flying Tranquill/Unfezant and the please-don't-ever-actually-use-it Chansey. So basically, keep it away from things that deal super effective damage to it--Fire, Flying, Poison--and it will beat the stuffing out of most everything in a neutral ground slugfest. The Poison typing is more strength than liability in this meta.
But let's take a look at the available charge moves before we go any further, because they're key to another point I want to make....
Charge Moves:
Sludge Bomb (Poison, 80 damage, 50 energy)
Petal Blizzard (Grass, 110 damage, 65 energy)
Moonblast (Fairy, 130 damage, 70 energy)
Return (Normal, 130 damage, 70 energy)
Solar Beam (Grass, 150 damage, 80 energy)
You know, it wasn't all that long ago that Vileplume didn't even have Sludge Bomb. That means it would take 17 Razor Leafs--and seventeen seconds, a lifetime in a PvP match--for Plume to reach a charge move, and it would be a move of the same typing as Razor Leaf (Petal Blizzard). Blech. 🤢 Sludge Bomb isn't massively better (it's still 13 RLs/seconds), but it's at least more realistic to reach, and offers different coverage than Razor Leaf.
However, that doesn't really translate to more wins. As I've discussed in numerous articles in the past, Razor Leafers (and now Charmers too) are best played like this:
1.) Razor Leaf initial opposing Pokemon to death. Do NOT use charge move unless strictly necessary to win the match.
2.) Either throw charge move at next Pokémon up after initial one dies, or if a VERY unfavorable matchup, consider swapping out to return with charge move ready to fire near end of game.
3.) Get in whatever additional Razor Leaf damage you can before dying. Do NOT use any more shields on the Razor Leafer.
So following that plan, what Sludge Bomb DOES give you is a very good chance of reaching one charge move in time to throw it at the next 'mon up. And as anyone who's been left stranded with a Venusaur against a Charizard in GO Battle League can tell you, Sludge Bomb can deal very good damage to even the toughest Grass counters. And hard Grass counters are what the opponent is most likely to throw at your Plume.
And the discussion really could end there. Technically Moonblast would be the second move to add, on typing alone, but it doesn't help Plume at all versus most of its counters, being resisted by Fire, Poison, and Steel. And Petal Blizzard and Solar Beam are very redundant with the high Grass damage output of Razor Leaf. Return... meh, I guess. At least it's not resisted by much. But really, Vileplume is one of the easier Pokémon in the Cup to label as a "thrifty" option... no second move necessary, so I would recommend saving your hard-earned 50,000 dust. Razor Leaf stuff down, throw a Sludge Bomb afterwards when it's most advantageous to do so (though really, it'll probably be immediately upon Plume's second opponent entering the battle), and be content with Plume doing that much for you.
Because the other ugly truth of Razor Leafers is this: they usually require a shield to even REACH their own charge move. There is very little you can finish off with Razor Leaf alone without having to use a shield, though at least the Rhynos, A-Grav, and the Charmers are all still on there. (And even Machamp, though JUST barely... that might still be a spot where it's better to use a shield and get out with over half of Plume's HP left instead.)
And if you want to walk on the wild side and burn BOTH of your shields, Plume is terrifying, especially if you just pocket all that energy and straight Razor Leaf. This CAN create some crazy possibilities, like Vileplume taking out Magneton or Medicham or Gliscor and having a ton of HP left and a Sludge Bomb ready to go with energy even left over, but really, I probably wouldn't recommend that. Even in those spots, yes, you'll either deal big damage with the first Sludge Bomb or force a shield to help balance out the two you used yourself, but you're still not likely to reach a second Bomb, and now you could start falling behind. Usually best to settle for taking out one Pokemon, using a single shield to get there, getting off a single Bomb as a parting gift to whatever follows, and moving on. Doing that is a good day at the office for a Razor Leafer.
Which may leave you scratching your head a little at the next one on the list:


Grass Type
Attack: 122 (120 Maximized)
Defense: 115 (117 Maximized)
HP: 129 (132 Maximized)
(Maximized/High Stat Product IVs: 0-13-15, 1496 CP, Level 28)
So there's good and bad here as compared to Plume. Let's start with the positives: noticeably better bulk means that Cherrim can hang in there long enough to get off a couple extra Razor Leafs that Vileplume sometimes can't. (We'll see a couple direct comparisons in a minute of how that can matter,) And mono-Grass typing means Ground damage is now resisted, and sneaky Psychic moves deal only neutral damage.
The downside? The typing is probably more of a bad thing than good. As discussed with Plume, a Poison subtyping removes weaknesses to Poison and Bug, both of which Cherrim "gains", and adds resistances to Fighting and Fairy, neither of which Cherrim benefits from. Remember that as we dive in further....
Fast Moves:
Razor Leaf (Grass, 5.5 DPT, 2.0 EPT, 1.0 CD)
Bullet Seed (Grass, 1.67 DPT, 3.67 EPT, 1.5 CD)
Here we have a second fast move option that initially seems worth at least checking out... but uh... no. Don't do it!
Cherrim is a Razor Leafer, pure and simple. And in that role, she does much better than you might think. For one thing, she can Razor Leaf Steelix, Gligar, and even Gliscor. No frills, no tricks, just straight Razor Leafing and taking advantage of the bulk it has that Plume lacks, because Plume cannot overcome that trio without some kind of advantage in its favor.
But then the bad news: the Fighters don't mind Cherrim nearly as much as Plume. Machamp still technically loses, though really results that close can go either way in practice. Scrafty you hope to just tie, and Medicham is probably a write-off assuming it has Ice Punch (and it really should). Sableye slips away as well, as does Wigglytuff.
However, that's not quite the whole story. There are still IVs to consider. With Vileplume, there was actually a very slight DIP in performance with maximized GL IVs, but that's not the case here. With high stat product IVs, Cherrim actually show more promise, shoring up Machamp, regaining Scrafty and Sableye, and even flipping what's still admittedly a super close result against Wigglytuff. Medicham sadly still escapes, but really, that much more closely mimics Vileplume's performance, and even slightly exceeds it with the pickups against Steelix and the Glisboys.
But the roller coaster ride continues, as we crest that last positive vibe hill and slope down the other side....
Charge Moves:
Dazzling Gleam (Fairy, 110 damage, 70 energy)
Solar Beam (Grass, 150 damage, 80 energy)
Hyper Beam (Normal, 150 damage, 80 energy)
You want to hear something ironic? Cherrim is one of the super cheap 'mons that only requires 10,000 dust to unlock a second charge move... and it is uncertain whether it can reach even ONE charge move at all in actual play. So yeah, sure, go ahead and add Solar or Hyper Beam, but don't expect to ever use them unless the game is a sure lock for you already.
More realistically, we're left in the unenviable position pre-Sludge Bomb Plume was in for so long: needing to grind out a 70 energy Fairy move, which will take a slow seventeen seconds and more than a little luck. So while Cherrim is a nice little bulky Leafer than can perhaps get some initial wins easier than Vileplume, it's advantage: Plume when it comes to the followup play. No guarantee Cherrim will ever reach Dazzling Gleam at all, and even if it does, it doesn't provide the more advantageous coverage of Poison moves like Sludge Bomb. Cherrim has good things--genuinely good!--going for it as a pure Razor Leafer, and I would dare say it's better in that specific role than Vileplume. But it just isn't able to do much for you beyond that, while Plume can at least drop a Bomb (or maybe even two!) before giving up the ghost.
Please give Cherrim a halfway decent charge move, Niantic. I want to use it, but it's hard to justify for this very reason. All that good bulk going to waste....
Anyway, one more to cover, and it is distinctly NOT a Razor Leafer.


Grass/Steel Type
Attack: 107 (105 Maximized)
Defense: 158 (158 Maximized)
HP: 122 (128 Maximized)
(Maximized/High Stat Product IVs: 0-13-13, 1500 CP, Level 25)
The only Grass/Steel we'll see for a while, with nice resistances that go with it, but potentially crippling vulnerabilities to Fighting and a DOUBLE one to Fire. At least it's bulky... gotta love that Defense especially!
Fast Moves:
Bullet Seed (Grass, 1.67 DPT, 3.67 EPT, 1.5 CD)
Metal Claw (Steel, 2.50 DPT, 3.00 EPT, 1.0 CD)
Before I analyze what we have here, one question: WHY does this thing not have Vine Whip? Its body IS, like, 80% whips of vine. What the heck? Oh, the lost possibilities!
Instead, we're left looking at Bullet Seed for our Grass fast type. It's not the worst thing in the world, but MAN, it's so lackluster. You're hoping to squeeze off as many charge moves as you can with it, since it deals practically no damage itself.
Metal Claw is okay-ish too, but it's a below average move (only average EPT and 0.5 less DPT than the average), but it's been alright on other 'mons in past metas where it could abuse Ices and Fairies and the like. But there are no Ices to speak of here, and while there ARE notable Fairies, Bullet Seed can take care of them anyway (as we'll see in a sec) and is the move I recommend.
So, with the high energy Seed in mind, let's see what it is we want to charge up....
Charge Moves:
Mirror Shot (Steel, 35 damage, 35 energy, 30% Chance to Decrease Opponent Defense -1 Stage)
Acid Spray (Poison, 20 damage, 50 energy, Decrease Opponent Defense -2 Stages)
Power Whip (Grass, 90 damage, 50 energy)
Thunder (Electric, 100 damage, 60 energy)
Flash Cannon (Steel, 110 damage, 65 energy)
Oh man, my Charge TMs just hid under the couch, whimpering.
And yes, you're likely to need some, because there are some frontrunners of note here.
The first one I strongly recommend is actually the weakest on paper: Mirror Shot. There are a few reasons why, but the main one is that it is, yes, a bait move. Especially on a 'mon like Ferrothorn where opponents may not know what move(s) to expect, whether due to newness of the Pokémon or the fact that it has such a varied movepool, having a good bait move gains a bit more importance as there's a better chance of "panic shielding" than you may normally encounter. And Mirror Shot is a better than average bait move because it comes with a chance to debuff (whether shielded or not), AND is blessed with a Steel typing that is pretty good in this particular meta. Why, with Mirror Shot alone, you can take out the likes of the Rhynos (even with the threat of Mud Slap), other important Rocks like Alolan Graveler, all the main Fairies, and the other Grasses as a bonus. No baiting in THOSE scenarios, which is nice.
But realistically, Mirror Shot is just there to bait shields and set up other damaging moves. I'm gonna go ahead and eliminate Flash Cannon, as the main things you'd want it for are already met with straight Mirror Shotting. And the relevant wins it DOES gain (Probo, Magcargo, and Sable) are also gains for Power Whip... and then some. You still pick up everything Mirror Shot could do, plus the same Probopass and Sableye and Magcargo you got with Flash Cannon, AND for the first time, Steelix and Magneton and Gligar and Lickilicky (and yes, Lickitung too) on top of it. It represents Ferrothorn's best moveset in the Cup overall, including in shieldless and shield disadvantage scenarios. (Most Rocks and Fairies just ALWAYS lose to Power Whip.)
There is some consideration for Thunder, which gains you Flyers like Skarmory and Golbat, but it gives up a lot to get there, including Steelix, Sableeye, Gligar, even Magcargo, which seems like a lot to me. And no, combining Thunder and Whip doesn't work out so well either... like I said, the baiting (and Rock shredding) potential of Mirror Shot is important with Thorn... specifically, note how previously sure win Rhyperior escapes now.
So again, if you want to get spicy with Ferrothorn, I DO think it's a valid and viable course of action for certain teams, and BS/MS/PW is the way to go. But log some practice time and get a feel for Mirror Shot especially, as proper utilization and timing is pretty critical to much of Thorn's success.
And that's a wrap! Grass in Rose Cup, in a nutshell. What can it do for YOU? Hopefully you can better answer that now. Not every team needs it, but there ARE teams that can definitely benefit from what they bring to the table. Give them a try!
Shout-outs as always to my buddies in the GO: Stadium PvP Discord (join today!) and the MD PvP Alliance for their guidance and brainstorming. And as always, the simulated battles above from my go-to simming resource at PvPoke.com are a good start to the story, but they are certainly not the whole story. Run some sims yourself, test with the Grasses yourself, and please: discuss! I always love to hear your feedback and any discussions that come out of these deeper dives.
Thanks for the continued support and for sticking with me through these long analyses. I hope you continue to enjoy these articles as much as I continue to enjoy writing them!
P.S. - At the insistence of several folks here on Reddit and elsewhere, I have a Patreon now for anyone interested:
And I'm also on Twitter with near daily PvP tidbits as well!
submitted by JRE47 to TheSilphArena

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